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  • Is it wise to ask about design decisions made on a product during an interview?

    - by Desolate Planet
    I've been thinking about interview questions lately and I've been reflecting on bad interview experiences I've had in the past. One of particular note is where I had asked the interviewer why the team chose to use Spring over EJB3 in their product. The interviewer pretty much tore my face off, yelling "Because Spring is not the be all and end all of Java software development, do you want this job or not?". In response to this, I told him that this probably wasn't the job for me and I walked out the interview. He told me at the start of the interview that they had high stuff turnover, the product had gone from Modula 3 to Perl to Java then after asking him a technical question, he went in flames. It seemed obvious to me that he was toxic to the company with that kind of attitude. Question: Is it a good idea to probe on architectural choices taken in an interview? If not, why? From my own point of view, an interview is a two-way process. If the interviewers are testing me on my technical skills, I've got every right to ask them the same questions to 1) Figure out what their mindset and attitudes towards developing software solutions are and 2) To figure out if there are in line with how I would approach problems of that kind. It's very possible that the interviewer who got angry was a bad interviewer and forgot that an interview is a two-way process. If I was asked this, I would have simply said something along the lines of wanting to leverage the container more, but I certainly wouldn't have tried to put him in a state of meek capitulation. The interviewer in question was the lead developer in the team.

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  • Make a controller a superclass in MVC design pattern

    - by Nikola
    I am really confused how to handle this. I have: model.Outsider model.SubContractor (which extends Outsider) Basically, Outsider would mean Supplier, but SubContractor is not a Supplier itself so I had to divide it somehow. I used to have model.Outsider (super class of the two bellow) model.Supplier model.SubContractor But Supplier didn't have any unique fields so I have removed it (Was this correct?) So, continuing, I have db layer which has: db.DBOutsider db.DBSubContractor (which again extends the top one) And I have no place to put my Supplier methods. I can do that in DBOutsider, but then DBSubContractor (which extends DBOutsider) would get unnecessary methods. Do I create a DBSupplier even though there is no such class in the model layer? Then again, going to controller layer. It is the same situation as db layer. I have OutsiderController and SubContractorController (which extends the first one) (is this correct in first place? to have an extended controller?). But I have no place to put the methods which are concerned with Supplier and if I put them in the OutsiderController the SubContractorController would recieve unneccessary methods. At the moment I am going for the extra DBSupplier and SupplierController classes, but I have no idea if this is the correct way. Basically what perplexes me is the "empty" Supplier. Since it is supposed to be an Outsider but has no extra methods or fields, should there be an empty class?

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  • Internal Mutation of Persistent Data Structures

    - by Greg Ros
    To clarify, when I mean use the terms persistent and immutable on a data structure, I mean that: The state of the data structure remains unchanged for its lifetime. It always holds the same data, and the same operations always produce the same results. The data structure allows Add, Remove, and similar methods that return new objects of its kind, modified as instructed, that may or may not share some of the data of the original object. However, while a data structure may seem to the user as persistent, it may do other things under the hood. To be sure, all data structures are, internally, at least somewhere, based on mutable storage. If I were to base a persistent vector on an array, and copy it whenever Add is invoked, it would still be persistent, as long as I modify only locally created arrays. However, sometimes, you can greatly increase performance by mutating a data structure under the hood. In more, say, insidious, dangerous, and destructive ways. Ways that might leave the abstraction untouched, not letting the user know anything has changed about the data structure, but being critical in the implementation level. For example, let's say that we have a class called ArrayVector implemented using an array. Whenever you invoke Add, you get a ArrayVector build on top of a newly allocated array that has an additional item. A sequence of such updates will involve n array copies and allocations. Here is an illustration: However, let's say we implement a lazy mechanism that stores all sorts of updates -- such as Add, Set, and others in a queue. In this case, each update requires constant time (adding an item to a queue), and no array allocation is involved. When a user tries to get an item in the array, all the queued modifications are applied under the hood, requiring a single array allocation and copy (since we know exactly what data the final array will hold, and how big it will be). Future get operations will be performed on an empty cache, so they will take a single operation. But in order to implement this, we need to 'switch' or mutate the internal array to the new one, and empty the cache -- a very dangerous action. However, considering that in many circumstances (most updates are going to occur in sequence, after all), this can save a lot of time and memory, it might be worth it -- you will need to ensure exclusive access to the internal state, of course. This isn't a question about the efficacy of such a data structure. It's a more general question. Is it ever acceptable to mutate the internal state of a supposedly persistent or immutable object in destructive and dangerous ways? Does performance justify it? Would you still be able to call it immutable? Oh, and could you implement this sort of laziness without mutating the data structure in the specified fashion?

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  • Is there a language between C and C++?

    - by Robert Martin
    I really like the simple and transparent nature of C: when I write C code I feel unencumbered by "leaky abstractions" and can almost always make a shrewd guess as to the assembly I'm producing. I also like the simple, familiar syntax for C. However, C doesn't have these simple, helpful doodads that C++ offers like classes, simplified non-cstring handling, etc. I know that it's all possible to implement in C using jump tables and the like, but that's a bit wordy at times, and not very type-safe for various reasons. I'm not a fan of the over-emphasis on objects in C++, though, and I'm gun shy of the 'new' operator and the like. C++ seems to have just a few too many hiccups to, for instance, be used as a system programming language. Does there exist a language that sits between C and C++ on the scale of widgets and doodads? Disclaimer: I mean this as purely a factual question. I do not intend to anger you because I don't share your view that C{,++} is good enough to do whatever I'm planning.

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  • How to handle growing QA reporting requirements?

    - by Phillip Jackson
    Some Background: Our company is growing very quickly - in 3 years we've tripled in size and there are no signs of stopping any time soon. Our marketing department has expanded and our IT requirements have as well. When I first arrived everything was managed in Dreamweaver and Excel spreadsheets and we've worked hard to implement bug tracking, version control, continuous integration, and multi-stage deployment. It's been a long hard road, and now we need to get more organized. The Problem at Hand: Management would like to track, per-developer, who is generating the most issues at the QA stage (post unit testing, regression, and post-production issues specifically). This becomes a fine balance because many issues can't be reported granularly (e.g. per-url or per-"page") but yet that's how Management would like reporting to be broken down. Further, severity has to be taken into account. We have drafted standards for each of these areas specific to our environment. Developers don't want to be nicked for 100+ instances of an issue if it was a problem with an include or inheritance... I had a suggestion to "score" bugs based on severity... but nobody likes that. We can't enter issues for every individual module affected by a global issue. [UPDATED] The Actual Questions: How do medium sized businesses and code shops handle bug tracking, reporting, and providing useful metrics to management? What kinds of KPIs are better metrics for employee performance? What is the most common way to provide per-developer reporting as far as time-to-close, reopens, etc.? Do large enterprises ignore the efforts of the individuals and rather focus on the team? Some other questions: Is this too granular of reporting? Is this considered 'blame culture'? If you were the developer working in this environment, what would you define as a measureable goal for this year to track your progress, with the reward of achieving the goal a bonus?

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  • A testing feedback/report tool?

    - by Mert
    I'm thinking of developing a pluggable test and assessment module. This tool will be used especially for desktop application projects to report and log errors, bugs, missing features and suggestions from testers. The tool will be plugged to the application by putting a small icon to the application itself. When pressed the tool will be visible where user can create entries about the application. Is there already a tool like that? I am not speaking about UI testing btw. For example, this tool might have a form consisting of Page name Environment information Entry type (can be bug, feature request, suggestion) Message User Info (name, contact etc) Date I think such a tool can greatly help testers prepare reports. Developers can understand the issue better and track all the reports.

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  • Python: Future as a major programming language?

    - by chrisw
    After reading some Python material and seeing some Python code a few years back I decided to give it a whirl. I decided to start with Python to solve the problems on ProjectEuler.net and was throughly impressed with the language. Since then I've went on to learn Django, and now use it primarily for my web applications. I would love to have a career programming in this language, however I fear the future of the language is currently in a state of uncertainness. With Google and other major companies embracing it there may be some hope, what are your thoughts on Python, do you see many job opportunities out there?

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  • How should I take being told that I was wrong?

    - by Chris
    On a fairly important project with short timelines I decided to use SubSonic for straight forward data access. I wired up a handful of forms, created matching database tables and POCO's for each and used SubSonic's simple repository mode for the data access. Everything worked well and I was able to bang these forms out pretty quickly and I moved on to other things. Since that time I have heard that using SubSonic was a 'cowboy move' and that it was implemented 'incorrectly' and that 'the person who used it, didn't even know how to use SubSonic'. What I would like to know is, how should I take this? There were and still are no standards for data access at this company, so there is no violation of a standard. The forms worked exactly as requested and saved the data to the database correctly. And with only spending a few days on the forms instead of weeks, saved a lot of time which was used for other functionality in the project. So in light of all of this, I am confused as to what was 'incorrect'. Am I missing something here? Thanks for your answers.

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  • Python C API return more than one value / object without building a tuple [migrated]

    - by Grisu
    I got the following problem. I have written a C-Extension to Python(2.7 / 3.2) to interface a self written software library. Unfortunately I need to return two values from the function where the last one is optional. In Python I tried def func(x,y): return x+y, x-y test = func(13,4) but test is a tuple. If I write test1,test2 = func(13,4) I got both values separated. Is there a possibility to return only one value without unpacking the tuple, i.e. the second(,.. third, ..fourth) value gets neglected? And if such a solution existst, how does it look for the C-API? Because return Py_BuildValue("ii",x+y,x-y); results in a tuple as well.

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  • "Oracle Certified Expert, Java Platform, Enterprise Edition 6 Java Persistence API Developer" Preparation

    - by Matt
    I have been working with Hibernate for a fews years now, and I want to solidify and demonstrate my knowledge by taking the Oracle JPA certification, also known as: "Oracle Certified Expert, Java Platform, Enterprise Edition 6 Java Persistence API Developer (CX-310-094)" There is a training course provided by Oracle: "Building Database Driven Applications with JPA (SL-370-EE6)" But this costs $1800 and I think it would be overkill for my needs. Ideally, I would like a self study guide that will cover everything in the exam. I have looked for books and these seem like possibilities: Pro JPA 2: Mastering the Java Persistence API (Expert's Voice in Java Technology) and Beginning Java EE 6 with GlassFish 3 2nd Edition (Expert's Voice in Java Technology) But these aren't checklist type study guides as far as I am aware. I found the official SCJP study guide very useful, but I think the equivalent text for the JPA exam isn't out yet. If anyone has taken this exam, I would be grateful to hear how you prepared for it. Thanks!

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  • Is monkeypatching considered good programming practice?

    - by vartec
    I've been under impression, that monkeypatching is more in quick and dirty hack category, rather than standard, good programming practice. While I'd used from time to time to fix minor issues with 3rd party libs, I considered it temporary fix and I'd submit proper patch to the 3rd party project. However, I've seen this technique used as "the normal way" in mainstream projects, for example in Gevent's gevent.monkey module. Has monkeypatching became mainstream, normal, acceptable programming practice? See also: "Monkeypatching For Humans" by Jeff Atwood

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  • While loop error?

    - by user134134
    I believe the problem with my code lies within my while loop. Admittedly, I'm rather new to Javascript programming. Does this look okay: <! DOCTYPE html> <head><title>title</title></head> <body> <script type="text/javascript"> alert("Hello, stranger. Please note that at this current moment, we do not have a save function. It might be a good idea to record your answers."); var preAnswer = 0; while (var preAnswer = 0) { var name = prompt("What is your name? Please capitalise it, for the sake of grammar.") if (name === "") { alert("What are you playing at? You didn't type anything."); var preAnswer = 0; } else { var preAnswer = 1 } } alert("Nice name, " + name + ", bro.") </script> </body> </html> I'm sure I've done something wrong, as it isn't functioning.

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  • How do you visually represent programming skills?

    - by TomSchober
    I had a discussion with a recruiter recently that made me wish I could visually represent programming skills. In trying to explain how skills relate, what are the important properties of those skills? Would a tagging model work (i.e. "Design Pattern," "Programming Language," "IDE," or "VCS")? Are they really hierarchical? Clarification: The real problem I see is communicating the level of granularity among skill sets. For instance saying someone "knows Java" is a uselessly broad term in describing what someone can DO. However saying they know how to write web services with the Java Programming language is a bit better. To go even further, saying they know Spring as a tool under all that is probably specific enough. What should we call those levels of granularity? What are the relationships between the terms we use? i.e. Framework to Language, Tool to Language, Framework to Solution(like web services), etc.

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  • Is it a good practice to wrap all primitives and Strings?

    - by Amogh Talpallikar
    According to Jeff Bay's Essay on Object Callisthenics, One of the practices is set to be "Wrap all primitives and Strings" Can anyone elaborate on this ? In languages where we already have wrappers for primitives like C# and Java. and In languages where Collections can have generics where you are sure of what type goes into the collection, do we need to wrap string's inside their own classes ? Does it have any other advantage ?

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  • Design Patterns: Should I learn them?

    - by prelic
    So it's kinda weird asking two questions back-to-back, but they aren't very related and I didn't want to combine them, but I'm not spamming questions, I promise! Anyway, I'm a recent college grad, and my education only touched on design patterns...we implemented a few simple ones, touched on the fact that there were more complicated ones, and were instructed to turn to the GoF book if we wanted to learn more. My question is, is it worth learning the patterns in the GoF book? To me, it's always seemed counter-intuitive to try and make a problem fit a classic pattern, but obviously the book, and the patterns, are famous for a reason. Do they show up enough that I should be learning them? Thanks again!

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  • Is Haskell's type system an obstacle to understanding functional programming?

    - by FarmBoy
    I'm studying Haskell for the purpose of understanding functional programming, with the expectation that I'll apply the insight that I gain in other languages (Groovy, Python, JavaScript mainly.) I choose Haskell because I had the impression that it is very purely functional, and wouldn't allow for any reliance on state. I did not choose to learn Haskell because I was interested in navigating an extremely rigid type system. My question is this: Is a strong type system a necessary by-product of an extremely pure functional language, or is this an unrelated design choice particular to Haskell? If it is the latter, I'm curious what would be the most purely functional language that is dynamically typed. I'm not particularly opposed to strong typing, it has its place, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it benefits me in this educational endeavor.

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  • Exception while running an EJB program [closed]

    - by rajesh
    I'm a newbie to JEE. I'm trying a sample EJB3 program given in this website. while trying to run the client program, I get an exception like this [JBossManagedConnectionPool] Throwable while attempting to get a new connection: null org.jboss.resource.JBossResourceException: Could not create connection; - nested throwable: (org.jboss.resource.JBossResourceException: Failed to register driver for: com.mysql.jdbc.Driver; - nested throwable: (java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.mysql.jdbc.Driver from BaseClassLoader@4c19dd{VFSClassLoaderPolicy@35fd58{name=vfszip:/home/rajesh/workspace/jboss-5.1.0.GA/server/default/deploy/FirstJPAproject.jar/ domain=ClassLoaderDomain@17380fc{name=DefaultDomain parentPolicy=BEFORE parent=org.jboss.bootstrap.NoAnnotationURLClassLoader@76cbf7} roots=[MemoryContextHandler@9160338[path= context=vfsmemory://3j001-rho3wm-h8v3wfs4-1-h8v5pkwn-9u real=vfsmemory://3j001-rho3wm-h8v3wfs4-1-h8v5pkwn-9u], DelegatingHandler@25335794[path=FirstJPAproject.jar context=file:/home/rajesh/workspace/jboss-5.1.0.GA/server/default/deploy/ real=file:/home/rajesh/workspace/jboss-5.1.0.GA/server/default/deploy/FirstJPAproject.jar] I'm using Jboss5.1.0 and ejb 3.0 Please help me to get rid of this.

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  • A good tool for browser automation/client-side Web scripting

    - by hardmath
    I'm interested in adopting a tool/scripting language to automate some daily tasks connected with fighting forum spammers. A brief overview of these tasks: analyze new registrations and posts on a phpBB forum, and delete or deactivate spammers using a website/community that collects such spam reports. Typically such automation is integrated into the phpBB installation itself, which certainly has its advantages. My approach has the advantage of independent operation, etc. One way to think about this is in terms of browser automation. I've used iOpus iMacros for Firefox (the free version) in the past to respond to individual spammers, but current attacks are highly distributed. My "logic" for pigeonholing spammers vs. nonspammers seems beyond the easy reach of the free version of iMacros. From a more technical perspective one can think about dispensing with the browser altogether and programming GET/POST requests directed to my forum and other Web-based resources. I'm familiar with some scripting languages like Ruby and Lua, but I could be persuaded that a compiled application is better suited for these tasks. However in my experience the dynamic flexibility of interpreted environments is very useful in prototyping and debugging the application logic. So I'm leaning in the direction of scripting languages. Among browsers I favor Firefox and Chrome. I use both Windows and Linux platforms, and if the tool can adapt to an Android platform, it would make a neat demonstration of skills, yes? Thanks in advance for your suggestions!

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  • Windows driver signing

    - by Artem Smolny
    My company is developing driver for our hardware. Now I need to sign my driver for 32 and 64 bit platforms. Please tell, now I need to buy Authenticode certificate, right? What CA to use? DigiCert? GlobalSign? ( http://www.sslshopper.com/microsoft-authenticode-certificates.html ) Symantec? ( http://www.symantec.com/verisign/code-signing/microsoft-authenticode ) What is the difference between this CA offers? I need to use tools from WDK?

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  • Style bits vs. Separate bool's

    - by peterchen
    My main platform (WinAPI) still heavily uses bits for control styles etc. (example). When introducing custom controls, I'm permanently wondering whether to follow that style or rather use individual bool's. Let's pit them against each other: enum EMyCtrlStyles { mcsUseFileIcon = 1, mcsTruncateFileName = 2, mcsUseShellContextMenu = 4, }; void SetStyle(DWORD mcsStyle); void ModifyStyle(DWORD mcsRemove, DWORD mcsAdd); DWORD GetStyle() const; ... ctrl.SetStyle(mcsUseFileIcon | mcsUseShellContextMenu); vs. CMyCtrl & SetUseFileIcon(bool enable = true); bool GetUseFileIcon() const; CMyCtrl & SetTruncteFileName(bool enable = true); bool GetTruncteFileName() const; CMyCtrl & SetUseShellContextMenu(bool enable = true); bool GetUseShellContextMenu() const; ctrl.SetUseFileIcon().SetUseShellContextMenu(); As I see it, Pro Style Bits Consistent with platform less library code (without gaining complexity), less places to modify for adding a new style less caller code (without losing notable readability) easier to use in some scenarios (e.g. remembering / transferring settings) Binary API remains stable if new style bits are introduced Now, the first and the last are minor in most cases. Pro Individual booleans Intellisense and refactoring tools reduce the "less typing" effort Single Purpose Entities more literate code (as in "flows more like a sentence") No change of paradim for non-bool properties These sound more modern, but also "soft" advantages. I must admit the "platform consistency" is much more enticing than I could justify, the less code without losing much quality is a nice bonus. 1. What do you prefer? Subjectively, for writing the library, or for writing client code? 2. Any (semi-) objective statements, studies, etc.?

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  • How do developer get rid of silly requirements?

    - by sugar
    Hmm ! First of all let me give you the note of the requirement. So that you can have idea what kind of problem I am facing. Words From Project Manager : Hey ! Sugar, I am assigning you a task for developing a framework. This framework is supposed to be developed for all iOS application. Please go through brief of the required framework. It should be able to detect the thickness of my Thumb. It should be able to detect whether User is using thumb or Fingers If user is using thumbs/Fingers, Framework should calculate the size of thumb/fingers. Once size is been calculated, all elements of user interface should arranged & resized automatically. ( not specified how & where as its framework - it should be smart enough to arrange automatically ) If thumb size is larger elements should get arranged near by center area of iPad/iPhone If thumb size is smaller elements should get arranged near by corners of iPad/iPhone If thumb size is larger, fonts of all elements should get smaller. ( assuming = aged person ) If thumb size is smaller, fonts of all elements should get larger. ( assuming smaller thumb = low aged person ) Summary : This framework is required for creating user-friendly user-interfaces programmatically. We need to develop a very developer-friendly framework. Framework should be developed in such a way that we can use in as many projects as needed. Well, I am a developer. What I want to have as an answer is as follows. How to describe them - the way of they thinking is bit ridiculous ? How do I explain them - we can better concentrate on developing actual projects ? How do I convince them - that this kind of things even if possible, is not recommended to develop such things ? How do I say politely, gently & respectfully NO to this ? What should I say, So that they can not point at my experience ? ( e.g. you are 3 years experienced guy & you must have abilities to develop such things ) Feeling horror. Please help. Thanks in advance, Sugar. Note : Please help me to tag this question properly. I am stuck & this is real situation. Frustrated & tensed. You guys might have faced such requirements from TopLevel. requesting you to help with your experience. Well ! I came to know that - those TOPLEVEL guys don't have any idea of iPad, iPhone, Apple etc. I would do one thing. Sir, before we go further for framework development. It is strongly recommended to read Apple Human Interface Guidlines.

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  • How Facebook's Ad Bid System Works

    - by pnongrata
    When you are creating an ad on Facebook, you are provided with a "suggested bid" range (e.g., $0.90 - $2.15 USD). According to this page: The suggested bid range is there to help you pick a maximum bid so your ad will be successful. It’s based on how many other advertisers are competing to show their ad to the same audience as you are. I'm interested in understanding what's actually going on (technically) under the hood here. Say a user logs into Facebook. On the server-side, it the HTTP request that the user's browser sent (as part of the login) is handled, and the server needs to figure out which ad to display back to the user. I assume this is where the "bidding" system comes into play? Say that, based on this user's demographics, and based on the audience targeting that several competing advertisers designed their campaign with, let's pretend that Facebook sees a pool of 20 different ads it could return. How does this bidding system help Facebook determine which of the 20 ads it returns to the client-side? I'm guessing that advertisers who "bid more" get prioritized over those who "bid less". But when does this bidding take place? How often does an advertiser need to re-bid? How long is a bid binding for? Once I understand these usage-related concepts behind ads, it will probably be obvious between which of the following "selection strategies" the backend is using: Round robin Prioritized round robin Randomized (doubtful) History-based MVP-based Thanks to anyone who can help point me in the right direction and explain what these suggested bid systems are and how they work.

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  • What is the best way to go about testing that we handle failures appropriately?

    - by Earlz
    we're working on error handling in an application. We try to have fairly good automated test coverage. One big problem though is that we don't really know of a way to test some of our error handling. For instance, we need to test that whenever there is an uncaught exception, a message is sent to our server with exception information. The big problem with this is that we strive to never have an uncaught exception(and instead have descriptive error messages). So, how do we test something what we never want to actually happen?

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  • How to facilitate code reviews in a small team for embedded software?

    - by Adam Lewis
    Short Question Does a cost-effective tool / workflow exist to facilitate code reviews in a small team? More specifically, a small team that relies on post-commit code reviews. Background Our team currently consists of 3 full time and 1 part time software engineers, with plans on hiring more in the near future. Due to our team size and volume of projects we all must juggle, the pre-commit workflow that major tools (such as Review Board and Code Collaborator) use is not obtainable for us right now. The best we can do at the moment is to perform post-commit reviews before major releases or as time permits. Nearly all of our projects are hosted on RepositoryHosting.com (which I highly recommend) and contain a mixture of SVN and GIT repositories. Current Thoughts Since I cannot find a tool that fits our needs right now, I am turning to TRAC that is built into our repository's site. At the moment we use TRAC to file tickets and track milestones, so to me this seems like a natural fit for code review results as well. The direction I am heading in right now is to use a spread sheet(s) to log all of the bugs and comments. Do some macro magic to get it in a format that I can use TRAC's import ticket method and use TRAC's ticketing system to create the action items / bug reports automatically. The auto ticket generation is darn near a must have, adding in bugs and comments one at a time from a web-gui is really painful. Secondary Question If this workflow makes sense, is there a good / standard template to use as a code review log?

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  • Should one generally develop a client library for REST services to help prevent API breakages?

    - by BestPractices
    We have a project where UI code will be developed by the same team but in a different language (Python/Django) from the services layer (REST/Java). The code for each layer exits in different code repositories and which can follow different release cycles. I'm trying to come up with a process that will prevent/reduce breaking changes in the services layer from the perspective of the UI layer. I've thought to write integration tests at the UI layer level that we'll run whenever we build the UI or the services layer (we're using Jenkins as our CI tool to build the code which is in two Git repos) and if there are failures then something in the services layer broke and the commit is not accepted. Would it also be a good idea (is it a best practice?) to have the developer of the services layer create and maintain a client library for the REST service that exists in the UI layer that they will update whenever there is a breaking change in their Service API? Conceivably, we would then have the advantage of a statically-typed API that the UI code builds against. If the client library API changes, then the UI code won't compile (so we'll know sooner that there was a breaking change). I'd also still run the integration tests upon building the UI or services layer to further validate that the integration between UI and the service(s) still works.

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