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  • Grails unit testing and bootstrap

    - by tbruyelle
    I wrote an unit test for a controller. I have a Bootstrap file which alter the metaclass of domain classes by adding a method asPublicMap(). I use this method in the controller to return domain classes as json but only some selected public fields. My unit test failed because of MissingMethodException for asPublicMap(). As I understood, bootstrap classes are not loaded for unit tests, only for integration tests. That's why I got this error. My question is : Is there another place to put metaclass manipulation in order to take them into account during unit tests ?

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  • What kind of code would Kent Beck avoid unit testing?

    - by tieTYT
    I've been watching a few of the Is TDD Dead? talks on youtube, and one of the things that surprised me is Kent Beck seems to acknowledge that there are just some kinds of programs that aren't worth unit testing. For example, right here DHH says that Kent Beck is ... very happy to say "Well, TDD doesn't fit in this case, I'm just going to bail" It's frustrating to me that Kent Beck seems to acknowledge this, but nobody asks him to elaborate on it or give concrete examples. I'd like to know the situations where Kent Beck thinks TDD is a bad fit. Nobody can read his mind or speak for him, but I'm hoping he's been transparent enough through his books/tweets/whatever for someone to be able to answer. I'm not necessarily going to take what he says as gospel, but it would be useful to know that the times I've tried TDD and it just felt impossible/useless are situations that he would have bailed on it himself. Or, if it turned out he would have tested that code it'd suggest to me that I was approaching the process very wrong. I also think it would be enlightening to understand why he would bail on such projects. My opinion on why this is not a duplicate of "When is it appropriate to not unit test?" After skimming those answers I'm not satisfied. For example, look at UncleBob's answer. He doesn't even acknowledge that such a situation exists. I really think there's value in understanding Kent Beck's position, not just a general, "What's your opinion?" type of question. After all, he's the father of TDD.

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  • Is wrapping a third party code the only solution to unit test its consumers? [closed]

    - by Songo
    I'm doing unit testing and in one of my classes I need to send a mail from one of the methods, so using constructor injection I inject an instance of Zend_Mail class which is in Zend framework. Now some people argue that if a library is stable enough and won't change often then there is no need to wrap it. So assuming that Zend_Mail is stable and won't change and it fits my needs entirely, then I won't need a wrapper for it. Now take a look at my class Logger that depends on Zend_Mail: class Logger{ private $mailer; function __construct(Zend_Mail $mail){ $this->mail=$mail; } function toBeTestedFunction(){ //Some code $this->mail->setTo('some value'); $this->mail->setSubject('some value'); $this->mail->setBody('some value'); $this->mail->send(); //Some } } However, Unit testing demands that I test one component at a time, so I need to mock the Zend_Mail class. In addition I'm violating the Dependency Inversion principle as my Logger class now depends on concretion not abstraction. Now is wrapping Zend_Mail the only solution or is there a better approach to this problem? The code is in PHP, but answers doesn't have to be. This is more of a design issue than a language specific feature

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  • How to unit test models in MVC / MVR app?

    - by BBnyc
    I'm building a node.js web app and am trying to do so for the first time in a test driven fashion. I'm using nodeunit for testing, which I find allows me to write tests quickly and painlessly. In this particular app, the heavy lifting primarily involves translating SQL data into complex Javascript object and serving them to the front-end via json. Likewise, the app also spends a great deal of code validating and translating complex, multidimensional Javascript objects it receives from the front-end into SQL rows. Hence I have used a fat model design for the app -- most of the real code resides in the models, where the data translation happens. What's the best approach to test such models with unit tests? I mean in particular the methods that have create javascript objects from the SQL rows and serve them to the front-end. Right now what I'm doing is making particular requests of my models with the unit tests and checking the returned data for all of the fields that should be there. However I have a suspicion that this is not the most robust kind of testing I could be doing. My current testing design also means I have to package my app code with some dummy data so that my tests can anticipate the kind of data that the app should be returning when tests run.

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  • How to populate a private container for unit test?

    - by Sardathrion
    I have a class that defines a private (well, __container to be exact since it is python) container. I am using the information within said container as part of the logic of what the class does and have the ability to add/delete the elements of said container. For unit tests, I need to populate this container with some data. That date depends on the test done and thus putting it all in setUp() would be impractical and bloated -- plus it could add unwanted side effects. Since the data is private, I can only add things via the public interface of the object. This run codes that need not be run during a unit test and in some case is just a copy and paste from another test. Currently, I am mocking the whole container but somehow it does not feel that elegant a solution. Due to Python mocking frame work (mock), this requires the container to be public -- so I can use patch.dict(). I would rather keep that data private. What pattern can one use to still populate the containers without excising the public method so I have data to test with? Is there a way to do this with mock' patch.dict() that I missed?

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  • How best to construct our test subjects in unit tests?

    - by Liath
    Some of our business logic classes require quite a few dependencies (in our case 7-10). As such when we come to unit test these the creation become quite complex. In most tests these dependencies are often not required (only some dependencies are required for particular methods). As a result unit tests often require a significant number of lines of code to mock up these useless dependencies (which can't be null because of null checks). For example: [Test] public void TestMethodA() { var dependency5 = new Mock<IDependency1>(); dependency5.Setup(x => x. // some setup var sut = new Sut(new Mock<IDependency1>().Object, new Mock<IDependency2>().Object, new Mock<IDependency3>().Object, new Mock<IDependency4>().Object, dependency5); Assert.SomeAssert(sut.MethodA()); } In this example almost half the test is taken up creating dependencies which aren't used. I've investigated an approach where I have a helper method. [Test] public void TestMethodA() { var dependency5 = new Mock<IDependency1>(); dependency5.Setup(x => x. // some setup var sut = CreateSut(null, null, null, null, dependency5); Assert.SomeAssert(sut.MethodA()); } private Sut CreateSut(IDependency1 d1, IDependency2 d2...) { return new Sut(d1 ?? new Mock<IDependency1>().Object, d2 ?? new Mock<IDependency2>().Object, } But these often grow very complicated very quickly. What is the best way to create these BLL classes in test classes to reduce complexity and simplify tests?

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  • Unit Testing Myths and Practices

    We all understand the value of Unit Testing, but how come so few organisations maintain unit tests for their in-house applications? We can no longer pretend that unit testing is a universal panacea for ensuring less-buggy applications. Instead, we should be prepared to actively justify the use of unit tests, and be more savvy about where in the development cycle the unit test resources should be most effectively used.

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  • Unit test: How best to provide an XML input?

    - by TheSilverBullet
    I need to write a unit test which validates the serialization of two attributes of an XML(size ~ 30 KB) file. What is the best way to provide an input for this test? Here are the options I have considered: Add the file to the project and use a file reader Pass the contents of the XML as a string Create the XML through a program and pass it Which is my best option and why? If there is another way which you think is better, I would love to hear it.

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  • Are there any concerns with using a static read-only unit of work so that it behaves like a cache?

    - by Rowan Freeman
    Related question: How do I cache data that rarely changes? I'm making an ASP.NET MVC4 application. On every request the security details about the user will need to be checked with the area/controller/action that they are accessing to see if they are allowed to view it. The security information is stored in the database. For example: User Permission UserPermission Action ActionPermission A "Permission" is a token that is applied to an MVC action to indicate that the token is required in order to access the action. Once a user is given the permission (via the UserPermission table) then they have the token and can therefore access the action. I've been looking in to how to cache this data (since it rarely changes) so that I'm only querying in-memory data and not hitting a database (which is a considerable performance hit at the moment). I've tried storing things in lists, using a caching provider but I either run in to problems or performance doesn't improve. One problem that I constantly run in to is that I'm using lazy loading and dynamic proxies with EntityFramework. This means that even if I ToList() everything and store them somewhere static, the relationships are never populated. For example, User.Permissions is an ICollection but it's always null. I don't want to Include() everything because I'm trying to keep things simple and generic (and easy to modify). One thing I know is that an EntityFramework DbContext is a unit of work that acts with 1st-level caching. That is, for the duration of the unit of work, everything that is accessed is cached in memory. I want to create a read-only DbContext that will exist indefinitely and will only be used to read about permission data. Upon testing this it worked perfectly; my page load times went from 200ms+ to 20ms. I can easily force the data to refresh at certain intervals or simply leave it to refresh when the application pool is recycled. Basically it will behave like a cache. Note that the rest of the application will interact with other contexts that exist per request as normal. Is there any disadvantage to this approach? Could I be doing something different?

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  • How do you unit test a unit test?

    - by FlySwat
    I was watching Rob Connerys webcasts on the MVCStoreFront App, and I noticed he was unit testing even the most mundane things, things like: public Decimal DiscountPrice { get { return this.Price - this.Discount; } } Would have a test like: [TestMethod] public void Test_DiscountPrice { Product p = new Product(); p.Price = 100; p.Discount = 20; Assert.IsEqual(p.DiscountPrice,80); } While, I am all for unit testing, I sometimes wonder if this form of test first development is really beneficial, for example, in a real process, you have 3-4 layers above your code (Business Request, Requirements Document, Architecture Document), where the actual defined business rule (Discount Price is Price - Discount) could be misdefined. If that's the situation, your unit test means nothing to you. Additionally, your unit test is another point of failure: [TestMethod] public void Test_DiscountPrice { Product p = new Product(); p.Price = 100; p.Discount = 20; Assert.IsEqual(p.DiscountPrice,90); } Now the test is flawed. Obviously in a simple test, it's no big deal, but say we were testing a complicated business rule. What do we gain here? Fast forward two years into the application's life, when maintenance developers are maintaining it. Now the business changes its rule, and the test breaks again, some rookie developer then fixes the test incorrectly...we now have another point of failure. All I see is more possible points of failure, with no real beneficial return, if the discount price is wrong, the test team will still find the issue, how did unit testing save any work? What am I missing here? Please teach me to love TDD, as I'm having a hard time accepting it as useful so far. I want too, because I want to stay progressive, but it just doesn't make sense to me. EDIT: A couple people keep mentioned that testing helps enforce the spec. It has been my experience that the spec has been wrong as well, more often than not, but maybe I'm doomed to work in an organization where the specs are written by people who shouldn't be writing specs.

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  • How do you unit test the real world?

    - by Kim Sun-wu
    I'm primarily a C++ coder, and thus far, have managed without really writing tests for all of my code. I've decided this is a Bad Idea(tm), after adding new features that subtly broke old features, or, depending on how you wish to look at it, introduced some new "features" of their own. But, unit testing seems to be an extremely brittle mechanism. You can test for something in "perfect" conditions, but you don't get to see how your code performs when stuff breaks. A for instance is a crawler, let's say it crawls a few specific sites, for data X. Do you simply save sample pages, test against those, and hope that the sites never change? This would work fine as regression tests, but, what sort of tests would you write to constantly check those sites live and let you know when the application isn't doing it's job because the site changed something, that now causes your application to crash? Wouldn't you want your test suite to monitor the intent of the code? The above example is a bit contrived, and something I haven't run into (in case you haven't guessed). Let me pick something I have, though. How do you test an application will do its job in the face of a degraded network stack? That is, say you have a moderate amount of packet loss, for one reason or the other, and you have a function DoSomethingOverTheNetwork() which is supposed to degrade gracefully when the stack isn't performing as it's supposed to; but does it? The developer tests it personally by purposely setting up a gateway that drops packets to simulate a bad network when he first writes it. A few months later, someone checks in some code that modifies something subtly, so the degradation isn't detected in time, or, the application doesn't even recognize the degradation, this is never caught, because you can't run real world tests like this using unit tests, can you? Further, how about file corruption? Let's say you're storing a list of servers in a file, and the checksum looks okay, but the data isn't really. You want the code to handle that, you write some code that you think does that. How do you test that it does exactly that for the life of the application? Can you? Hence, brittleness. Unit tests seem to test the code only in perfect conditions(and this is promoted, with mock objects and such), not what they'll face in the wild. Don't get me wrong, I think unit tests are great, but a test suite composed only of them seems to be a smart way to introduce subtle bugs in your code while feeling overconfident about it's reliability. How do I address the above situations? If unit tests aren't the answer, what is? Thanks!

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  • Using Unit of Work design pattern / NHibernate Sessions in an MVVM WPF

    - by Echiban
    I think I am stuck in the paralysis of analysis. Please help! I currently have a project that Uses NHibernate on SQLite Implements Repository and Unit of Work pattern: http://blogs.hibernatingrhinos.com/nhibernate/archive/2008/04/10/nhibernate-and-the-unit-of-work-pattern.aspx MVVM strategy in a WPF app Unit of Work implementation in my case supports one NHibernate session at a time. I thought at the time that this makes sense; it hides inner workings of NHibernate session from ViewModel. Now, according to Oren Eini (Ayende): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/ee819139.aspx He convinces the audience that NHibernate sessions should be created / disposed when the view associated with the presenter / viewmodel is disposed. He presents issues why you don't want one session per windows app, nor do you want a session to be created / disposed per transaction. This unfortunately poses a problem because my UI can easily have 10+ view/viewmodels present in an app. He is presenting using a MVP strategy, but does his advice translate to MVVM? Does this mean that I should scrap the unit of work and have viewmodel create NHibernate sessions directly? Should a WPF app only have one working session at a time? If that is true, when should I create / dispose a NHibernate session? And I still haven't considered how NHibernate Stateless sessions fit into all this! My brain is going to explode. Please help!

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  • Junit: splitting integration test and Unit tests.

    - by jeff porter
    Hello all, I've inherited a load of Junit test, but these tests (apart from most not working) are a mixture of actual unit test and integration tests (requiring external systems, db etc). So I'm trying to think of a way to actually separate them out, so that I can run the unit test nice and quickly and the integration tests after that. The options are.. 1: Split them into separate directories. 2: Move to Junit4 and annotate the classes to separate them. 3: Use a file naming convention to tell what a class is , i.e. AdapterATest and AdapterAIntergrationTest. 3 has the issue that Eclipse has the option to "Run all tests in the selected project/package or folder". So it would make it very hard to just run the integration tests. 2: runs the risk that developers might start writing integration tests in unit test classes and it just gets messy. 1: Seems like the neatest solution, but my gut says there must be a better solution out there. So that is my question, how do you lot break apart integration tests and proper unit tests?

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  • Unit Testing in the real world

    - by Malfist
    I manage a rather large application (50k+ lines of code) by myself, and it manages some rather critical business actions. To describe the program simple, I would say it's a fancy UI with the ability to display and change data from the database, and it's managing around 1,000 rental units, and about 3k tenants and all the finances. When I make changes, because it's so large of a code base, I sometimes break something somewhere else. I typically test it by going though the stuff I changed at the functional level (i.e. I run the program and work through the UI), but I can't test for every situation. That is why I want to get started with unit testing. However, this isn't a true, three tier program with a database tier, a business tier, and a UI tier. A lot of the business logic is performed in the UI classes, and many things are done on events. To complicate things, everything is database driven, and I've not seen (so far) good suggestions on how to unit test database interactions. How would be a good way to get started with unit testing for this application. Keep in mind. I've never done unit testing or TDD before. Should I rewrite it to remove the business logic from the UI classes (a lot of work)? Or is there a better way?

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  • uninitialized constant Test::Unit::TestResult::TestResultFailureSupport

    - by Vitaly Kushner
    I get the error in subj when I'm trying to run specs or generators in a fresh rails project. This happens when I add shoulda to the mix. I added the following in the config/environment.rb: config.gem 'rspec', :version => '1.2.6', :lib => false config.gem 'rspec-rails', :version => '1.2.6', :lib => false config.gem "thoughtbot-shoulda", :version => "2.10.2", :lib => 'shoulda', :source => "http://gems.github.com" I'm on OSX. ruby 1.8.6 (2008-08-11 patchlevel 287) gems 1.3.5 rails 2.3.4 rspec - 1.2.6 shoulda - 2.10.2 test-unit - 2.0.3 I'm aware of this and adding config.gem 'test-unit', :lib => 'test/unit' indeed solves the genrator problem as it doesn't throw an exception, but it prints 0 tests, 0 assertions, 0 failures, 0 errors, 0 pendings, 0 omissions, 0 notifications at the end of the run so I suppose it tries to run tests which is unexpected and undesired, also the specs stop to run at all, seems like rspec is not running at all, when running rake spec I get the test-unit output again (with 0 tests as there are only specs, no tests defined)

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  • How to (unit-)test data intensive PL/SQL application

    - by doom2.wad
    Our team is willing to unit-test a new code written under a running project extending an existing huge Oracle system. The system is written solely in PL/SQL, consists of thousands of tables, hundreds of stored procedures packages, mostly getting data from tables and/or inserting/updating other data. Our extension is not an exception. Most functions return data from a quite complex SELECT statementa over many mutually bound tables (with a little added logic before returning them) or make transformation from one complicated data structure to another (complicated in another way). What is the best approach to unit-test such code? There are no unit tests for existing code base. To make things worse, only packages, triggers and views are source-controlled, table structures (including "alter table" stuff and necessary data transformations are deployed via channel other than version control). There is no way to change this within our project's scope. Maintaining testing data set seems to be impossible since there is new code deployed to the production environment on weekly basis, usually without prior notice, often changing data structure (add a column here, remove one there). I'd be glad for any suggestion or reference to help us. Some team members tend to be tired by figuring out how to even start for our experience with unit-testing does not cover PL/SQL data intensive legacy systems (only those "from-the-book" greenfield Java projects).

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  • Unit Testing Private Method in Resource Managing Class (C++)

    - by BillyONeal
    I previously asked this question under another name but deleted it because I didn't explain it very well. Let's say I have a class which manages a file. Let's say that this class treats the file as having a specific file format, and contains methods to perform operations on this file: class Foo { std::wstring fileName_; public: Foo(const std::wstring& fileName) : fileName_(fileName) { //Construct a Foo here. }; int getChecksum() { //Open the file and read some part of it //Long method to figure out what checksum it is. //Return the checksum. } }; Let's say I'd like to be able to unit test the part of this class that calculates the checksum. Unit testing the parts of the class that load in the file and such is impractical, because to test every part of the getChecksum() method I might need to construct 40 or 50 files! Now lets say I'd like to reuse the checksum method elsewhere in the class. I extract the method so that it now looks like this: class Foo { std::wstring fileName_; static int calculateChecksum(const std::vector<unsigned char> &fileBytes) { //Long method to figure out what checksum it is. } public: Foo(const std::wstring& fileName) : fileName_(fileName) { //Construct a Foo here. }; int getChecksum() { //Open the file and read some part of it return calculateChecksum( something ); } void modifyThisFileSomehow() { //Perform modification int newChecksum = calculateChecksum( something ); //Apply the newChecksum to the file } }; Now I'd like to unit test the calculateChecksum() method because it's easy to test and complicated, and I don't care about unit testing getChecksum() because it's simple and very difficult to test. But I can't test calculateChecksum() directly because it is private. Does anyone know of a solution to this problem?

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  • How do you unit-test a method with complex input-output

    - by Dan
    When you have a simple method, like for example sum(int x, int y), it is easy to write unit tests. You can check that method will sum correctly two sample integers, for example 2 + 3 should return 5, then you will check the same for some "extraordinary" numbers, for example negative values and zero. Each of these should be separate unit test, as a single unit test should contain single assert. What do you do when you have a complex input-output? Take a Xml parser for example. You can have a single method parse(String xml) that receives the String and returns a Dom object. You can write separate tests that will check that certain text node is parsed correctly, that attributes are parsed OK, that child node belongs to parent etc. For all these I can write a simple input, for example <root><child/></root> that will be used to check parent-child relationships between nodes and so on for the rest of expectations. Now, take a look at follwing Xml: <root> <child1 attribute11="attribute 11 value" attribute12="attribute 12 value">Text 1</child1> <child2 attribute21="attribute 21 value" attribute22="attribute 22 value">Text 2</child2> </root> In order to check that method worked correctly, I need to check many complex conditions, like that attribute11 and attribute12 belong to element1, that Text 1 belongs to child1 etc. I do not want to put more than one assert in my unit-test. How can I accomplish that?

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  • Need an advice for unit testing using mock object

    - by Andree
    Hi there, I just recently read about "Mocking objects" for unit testing and currently I'm having a difficulties implementing this approach in my application. Please let me explain my problem. I have a User model class, which is dependent on 2 data sources (database and facebook web service). The controller class simply use this User model as an interface to access data and it doesn't care about where the data came from. Currently I never done any unit test to this User model because it is dependent on an external web service. But just a while ago, I read about object mocking and now I know that it is a common approach to unit test a class that depends on external resources (like in my case). Now I want to create a unit test for the User model, but then I encountered a design issue: In order for the User model to use a mocked Facebook SDK, I have to inject this mocked Facebook SDK to the User object (probably using a setter). Therefore I can't construct the Facebook SDK inside the User object. I have to construct it outside the User object, and inject the SDK into the User object. The real client of my User model is the application's controller. Therefore I have to construct the Facebook SDK inside the controller and inject it to the user object. Well, this is a problem because I want my controller to be as clean as possible. I want my controller to be ignorant about the application's data source. I'm not good at explaining something systematically, so you'll probably sleeping before reading this last paragraph. But anyway, I want to ask if anyone here ever encountered the same problem as mine? How do you solve this problem? Regards, Andree

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  • Multiple Silverlight Unit Test Projects in Solution

    - by IUnknown
    I am building out a number of Silverlight 4.0 libraries that are part of the same solution. I like to break them into separate projects and have a Unit Test project for each: SolutionX -LibraryProject1 ---Class1.cs ---Class2.cs -LibraryProject1.Test ---Tests1.cs ---Tests2.cs -LibraryProject2 ---Class1.cs ---Class2.cs ---CLass3.cs -LibraryProject2.Test ---Tests1.cs ---Tests2.cs ---Tests3.cs -LibraryProject3 ---Class1.cs -LibraryProject3.Test ---Tests1.cs This works great when using VS regular test projects and infrastructure because I can create and execute list of test that are aggregated from each Test project. But with the Silverlight Unit Test Framework since the Silverlight Unit Test Project must be the "start up project" I cannot figure how to run a collection of tests from each test project in one go. I have to run each separately then switch the starting project each time. I would prefer to avoid create complex build scripts or build definitions - is there a way to run all the tests at once? -Thanks

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  • Tibco Unit Testing tools

    - by mezoid
    Does anyone know what unit testing tools are available when developing Tibco processes? In the next few months I'll be working on a Tibco project and I'm trying to find any existing unit testing frameworks that might make the job easier to build with a TDD approach. Thus far, the only one I've been able to locate is called BWUnit. It seems ok but its currently in beta and its commercial software. If possible I'd like to use an open source tool but as long as it is able to do a good job I'd be happy. So does anyone know of any other unit testing tools for Tibco development?

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  • Where to ask practical unit-testing questions?

    - by Ian Boyd
    Before i can understand unit testing, i have to see real world examples. Every book, blog, article, or answer i've seen gives hypothetical examples that don't apply to the/my real world. i really don't want to flood StackOverflow with hundreds of questions all titled "How do i unit-test this?" There must be another place i can go to ask for real solutions. Where can i go to get practical answers to unit-testing questions? Note: i would give an example question, but then people would get grumpy when i asked the 200 follow-up questions.

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  • Good tools which generate NUnit unit tests for .NET assemblies in Visual Studio 2008

    - by andy
    Hey guys, I'm pretty new to Unit Testing so bare with me. I realize that best best practice is not to auto generate unit tests, however I'd like to use Code Generation to set-up the basic skeleton of the tests. Now, I know Visual Studio 2008 already has the built in "create tests", however, it just creates a flat list of all the classes it's going to test... and it's not for NUnit right? Ideally, I'd like the code generation to follow the folder AND namespace structure of the assembly its generating tests for. Can you guys recommend any good tools which generate NUnit unit tests for .NET assemblies in Visual Studio 2008? cheers!

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  • Visual Studio 2010 does not discover new unit tests

    - by driis
    I am writing some unit tests in Visual Studio 2010. I can run all tests by using "Run all Tests in Current Context". However, if I write a new unit test, it does not get picked up by the environment - in other words, I am not able to find it in Test List Editor, by running all tests, or anywhere else. If I unload the project and then reload it; the new test is available to run. When I am adding a unit test, I simply add a new method to an already existing TestClass and decorating it with [TestMethod] attribute - nothing fancy. What might be causing this behaviour, and how do I make it work ?

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  • Unit Testing, IDataContext and Stored Procedures via Linq

    - by Terry_Brown
    hey folks, I'm currently using Stephen Walther's approach to unit testing Linq to SQL and the datacontext (http://stephenwalther.com/blog/archive/2008/08/17/asp-net-mvc-tip-33-unit-test-linq-to-sql.aspx) which is working a treat for all things linq. My Dal layer takes in an IDataContext, I use DI (via Unity) to concrete that up as the correct DataContext object and all works well. But - we have a company policy here of writes going via Stored Procs. Has anyone come up with a solution for mocking/faking the data context and still allowing stored procs to effectively be unit tested? I've got no real experience of any of the mocking frameworks (Rhino etc.) so if these are the correct means of doing this, I'd love some pointers on guides for them. Many thanks, Terry

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