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• Best choice for 3D Physics Engine for C#/XNA

  - by Nic Foster

  Since 2007 I've been working on the development of an open-source game engine, and have been using JigLibX for 3D Physics. However, the developers on the project have stopped contributing to it for over 2 years now, and it's lacking features I need, or have major bugs in certain features. What are some good choices for 3D physics engines that are written purely in C#? Are there any that are more complete than JigLibX? EDIT: I just stumbled upon an engine called BEPUphysics. It was supported up until May 2012, which is fairly recent. I may check it out, any information that you guys could give on how complete the engine is would be great.

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• How to understand Linux kernel source code for a beginner?

  - by user16867

  I am a student interested in working on Memory Management, particularly the page replacement component of the linux kernel. What are the different guides that can help me to begin understanding the kernel source? I have tried to read the book Understanding the Linux Virutal Memory Manager by Mel Gorman and Understanding the Linux Kernel by Cesati and Bovet, but they do not explain the flow of control through the code. They only end up explaining various data structures used and the work various functions perform. This makes the code more confusing. My project deals with tweaking the page replacement algorithm in a mainstream kernel and analyse its performance for a set of workloads. Is there a flavor of the linux kernel that would be easier to understand(if not the linux-2.6.xx kernel)?

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• How do you go about checking your open source libraries for keystroke loggers?

  - by asd

  A random person on the internet told me that a technology was secure(1), safe to use and didn't contain keyloggers because it is open source. While I can trivially detect the key stroke logger in this open source application, what can developers(2) do to protect themselves against rouge committers to open source projects? Doing a back of the envelope threat analysis, if I were a rogue developer, I'd fork a branch on git and promote it's download since it would have twitter support (and a secret key stroke logger). If it was an SVN repo, I'd create just create a new project. Even better would be to put the malicious code in the automatic update routines. (1) I won't mention which because I can only deal with one kind of zealot at a time. (2) Ordinary users are at the mercy of their virus and malware detection software-- it's absurd to expect grandma to read the source of code of their open source word processor's source code to find the keystroke logger.

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• Quadratic Programming with Oracle R Enterprise

  - by Jeff Taylor-Oracle

       I wanted to use quadprog with ORE on a server running Oracle Solaris 11.2 on a Oracle SPARC T-4 server For background, see: Oracle SPARC T4-2 http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23075_01/ Oracle Solaris 11.2 http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/solaris11/overview/index.html quadprog: Functions to solve Quadratic Programming Problems http://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/quadprog/index.html Oracle R Enterprise 1.4 ("ORE") 1.4 http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/options/advanced-analytics/r-enterprise/ore-downloads-1502823.html Problem: path to Solaris Studio doesn't match my installation: $ ORE CMD INSTALL quadprog_1.5-5.tar.gz * installing to library \u2018/u01/app/oracle/product/12.1.0/dbhome_1/R/library\u2019 * installing *source* package \u2018quadprog\u2019 ... ** package \u2018quadprog\u2019 successfully unpacked and MD5 sums checked ** libs /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 -m64   -PIC  -g  -c aind.f -o aind.o bash: /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95: No such file or directory *** Error code 1 make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `aind.o' ERROR: compilation failed for package \u2018quadprog\u2019 * removing \u2018/u01/app/oracle/product/12.1.0/dbhome_1/R/library/quadprog\u2019 $ ls -l /opt/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     root          15 Aug 19 17:36 /opt/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 -> ../prod/bin/f90 Solution: a symbolic link: $ sudo mkdir -p /opt/SunProd/studio12u3 $ sudo ln -s /opt/solarisstudio12.3 /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/ Now, it is all good: $ ORE CMD INSTALL quadprog_1.5-5.tar.gz * installing to library \u2018/u01/app/oracle/product/12.1.0/dbhome_1/R/library\u2019 * installing *source* package \u2018quadprog\u2019 ... ** package \u2018quadprog\u2019 successfully unpacked and MD5 sums checked ** libs /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 -m64   -PIC  -g  -c aind.f -o aind.o /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/ cc -xc99 -m64 -I/usr/lib/64/R/include -DNDEBUG -KPIC  -xlibmieee  -c init.c -o init.o /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 -m64  -PIC -g  -c -o solve.QP.compact.o solve.QP.compact.f /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 -m64  -PIC -g  -c -o solve.QP.o solve.QP.f /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/f95 -m64   -PIC  -g  -c util.f -o util.o /opt/SunProd/studio12u3/solarisstudio12.3/bin/ cc -xc99 -m64 -G -o quadprog.so aind.o init.o solve.QP.compact.o solve.QP.o util.o -xlic_lib=sunperf -lsunmath -lifai -lsunimath -lfai -lfai2 -lfsumai -lfprodai -lfminlai -lfmaxlai -lfminvai -lfmaxvai -lfui -lfsu -lsunmath -lmtsk -lm -lifai -lsunimath -lfai -lfai2 -lfsumai -lfprodai -lfminlai -lfmaxlai -lfminvai -lfmaxvai -lfui -lfsu -lsunmath -lmtsk -lm -L/usr/lib/64/R/lib -lR installing to /u01/app/oracle/product/12.1.0/dbhome_1/R/library/quadprog/libs ** R ** preparing package for lazy loading ** help *** installing help indices   converting help for package \u2018quadprog\u2019     finding HTML links ... done     solve.QP                                html      solve.QP.compact                        html  ** building package indices ** testing if installed package can be loaded * DONE (quadprog) ====== Here is an example from http://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/quadprog/quadprog.pdf > require(quadprog) > Dmat <- matrix(0,3,3) > diag(Dmat) <- 1 > dvec <- c(0,5,0) > Amat <- matrix(c(-4,-3,0,2,1,0,0,-2,1),3,3) > bvec <- c(-8,2,0) > solve.QP(Dmat,dvec,Amat,bvec=bvec) $solution [1] 0.4761905 1.0476190 2.0952381 $value [1] -2.380952 $unconstrained.solution [1] 0 5 0 $iterations [1] 3 0 $Lagrangian [1] 0.0000000 0.2380952 2.0952381 $iact [1] 3 2 Here, the standard example is modified to work with Oracle R Enterprise require(ORE) ore.connect("my-name", "my-sid", "my-host", "my-pass", 1521) ore.doEval(   function () {     require(quadprog)   } ) ore.doEval(   function () {     Dmat <- matrix(0,3,3)     diag(Dmat) <- 1     dvec <- c(0,5,0)     Amat <- matrix(c(-4,-3,0,2,1,0,0,-2,1),3,3)     bvec <- c(-8,2,0)    solve.QP(Dmat,dvec,Amat,bvec=bvec)   } ) $solution [1] 0.4761905 1.0476190 2.0952381 $value [1] -2.380952 $unconstrained.solution [1] 0 5 0 $iterations [1] 3 0 $Lagrangian [1] 0.0000000 0.2380952 2.0952381 $iact [1] 3 2 Now I can combine the quadprog compute algorithms with the Oracle R Enterprise Database engine functionality: Scale to large datasets Access to tables, views, and external tables in the database, as well as those accessible through database links Use SQL query parallel execution Use in-database statistical and data mining functionality

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• How can I get into the educational market?

  - by mmyers

  I believe that my current game project is very well-suited for educational gaming; so well-suited, in fact, that I know of several different schools (one community college and at least one or two high schools) that have used versions of it at some time or another. And that's without any such marketing on my part. I'd like to expand on this part of the potential user base. But I have absolutely no experience in dealing with school administrations. How can I break into this market enough to be noticed? And on a side note, could marketing the game as educational kill the gamers market?

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• What is the most complicated data structure you have used in a practical situation?

  - by Fanatic23

  The germ for this question came up from a discussion I was having with couple of fellow developers from the industry. Turns out that in a lot of places project managers are wary about complex data structures, and generally insist on whatever exists out-of-the-box from standard library/packages. The general idea seems to be like use a combination of whats already available unless performance is seriously impeded. This helps keeping the code base simple, which to the non-diplomatic would mean "we have high attrition, and newer ones we hire may not be that good". So no bloom filter or skip-lists or splay trees for you CS junkies. So here's the question (again): Whats the most complicated data structure you did or used in office? Helps get a sense of how good/sophisticated real world software are.

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• What is the ideal laptop for creative coding applications?

  - by Jason

  Hi, I am a creative coder using C++(cinder and OpenFrameworks) I am looking to upgrade from my MacBook, which slowed down to about 3fps this morning. My project involves particles systems and fluids reacting to audio analysis data and computer vision data in real-time. SD or HD? no biggie. I have asked many people what computer I need. Ideally, I want a MacBook Pro. But is that enough power? I've been told that I need a desktop for what I am doing though I'd rather stay portable I've been told that I should go PC linux to get the most power but I'd rather stay mac I've been told that RAM is more of bottleneck than processor speed I've been told that the Graphics Card is more important than CPU and that code optimizations such as using trees over lists, proper threading, sending tasks to the GPU make a bigger difference than the hardware!!! what's true?! what do I need? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated

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• Contributing to OSS, a Git Bootcamp

  So you want to contribute to an OSS project, but its hosted on github and you don't know where to start. This guide will cover the basics you'll need to get contributing - something made relatively easy by Git itself. First you'll need to install a Git client. We'll be using msysgit, so grab the latest full installer from: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/list Run the installer. I've disabled Shell integration (but you don't have to). What you want to do is make...Did you know that DotNetSlackers also publishes .net articles written by top known .net Authors? We already have over 80 articles in several categories including Silverlight. Take a look: here.

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• How can I make my game more popular without paying money?

  - by Marlon Drescher

  I am a game designer, software developer, composer and graphic artist and made the 3D Hack 'n Slay MMO Forgotten Elements on my own. It's playable at open Beta and will be released at the end of the year. I used Plain Old JAVA, JPCT 3D Engine, Tomcat Webserver and Blender 3D / Gimp to manage all the tasks. I developed the whole game from scratch. For me the hardest task in this challenge is probably the whole thing about marketing and advertisement. Because it is a independent project and I am the only person working on it, there is no money I could invest for making advertisement. But anyhow... How could it be possible to make this game more popular? What would you suggest me?

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• Rationale behind freeware projects

  - by VexXtreme

  I've seen some freeware projects in the past where the author(s) invested a significant amount of their personal time and resources and never even considered charging for the software. A lot of these projects were donation based, and from what I've heard, donationware can never be a viable business model (even to simply support development costs) because most people choose not to donate if given an option. A lot of these projects eventually shut down because their authors could not sustain them further. Granted, some people simply like making the community happy (or something), but if you're struggling to keep your project alive, why not charge some small amount such as $10 simply to stay operational? If people find your software useful (and a lot of people found those projects VERY useful) they won't have a problem paying such a small amount. The question is: if you have a popular app that people like and download in great numbers, why not put a price tag on it? Why do it for free?

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• Use a GUI designer or write it yourself for the desktop?

  - by TheLQ

  Writing a GUI for a program has always been a daunting, depressing, and frustrating task. It doesn't matter which language, its extremely hard to get what I want. Especially in compiled languages like Java where a change takes a minute or two to build. The result is that I increasingly use GUI designers for some of my project. Sure their is some spagetti code, but as long as I leave the configuration and a note saying "This was designed with X" I have no qualms with doing this. Is this an okay way to design a GUI? More importantly, is this what most people do? Or is the common way to just sit down and write it out?

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• Where to start in creating a massive multiplayer 3D Java game [on hold]

  - by user1373771

  I am planning on creating a massive multiplayer world and I am wondering where to start. I am quite inexperienced in the field of Java but I have researched into it and learned that it is perhaps my best bet in creating this project is Java for the fact that it has a much easier learning curve than C++ to beginners and still capable of holding massive amounts of players at a time. My question is simple: Should I start the game by creating a single player prototype and introducing multiplayer later as I become more experienced or start with multiplayer before I am completely experienced in the field. Thanks for your help!

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• How do I create and link to a database in ASP.NET (Razor) with Visual studio 2013?

  - by Blake

  We have a simple web app, part of which allows users to create accounts and then, hopefully soon, to write blog posts. The user log in system is working great, it utilizes the given .sdf database created when a new project is created. We would like to expand it now to allow for blog data (the title, body of the blog, image posts perhaps, etc). However, I'm unsure of how to add another table to the user database for this purpose - or if that would even be best since it has sensitive information in it. I've been reading blog post after blog post and still can't find anything current on this. All of the articles are for MVC projects or older versions of VS. If someone could point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated!

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• Can I minify Javascript that requires copyright notice?

  - by Nathan Long

  I guess this is actually a legal question, but it relates to software. I'm about to include a JS plugin in a project. The comments include: Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. Is using this in my web site "redistribution?" If I minify this to conserve bandwidth, I assume it will strip all comments. If the answer to #1 is yes, doesn't that imply I'm legally not allowed to minify it? (That would stink, since I was planning to auto-minify all JS as part of the deploy process.)

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• Is it feasible and useful to auto-generate some code of unit tests?

  - by skiwi

  Earlier today I have come up with an idea, based upon a particular real use case, which I would want to have checked for feasability and usefulness. This question will feature a fair chunk of Java code, but can be applied to all languages running inside a VM, and maybe even outside. While there is real code, it uses nothing language-specific, so please read it mostly as pseudo code. The idea Make unit testing less cumbersome by adding in some ways to autogenerate code based on human interaction with the codebase. I understand this goes against the principle of TDD, but I don't think anyone ever proved that doing TDD is better over first creating code and then immediatly therafter the tests. This may even be adapted to be fit into TDD, but that is not my current goal. To show how it is intended to be used, I'll copy one of my classes here, for which I need to make unit tests. public class PutMonsterOnFieldAction implements PlayerAction { private final int handCardIndex; private final int fieldMonsterIndex; public PutMonsterOnFieldAction(final int handCardIndex, final int fieldMonsterIndex) { this.handCardIndex = Arguments.requirePositiveOrZero(handCardIndex, "handCardIndex"); this.fieldMonsterIndex = Arguments.requirePositiveOrZero(fieldMonsterIndex, "fieldCardIndex"); } @Override public boolean isActionAllowed(final Player player) { Objects.requireNonNull(player, "player"); Hand hand = player.getHand(); Field field = player.getField(); if (handCardIndex >= hand.getCapacity()) { return false; } if (fieldMonsterIndex >= field.getMonsterCapacity()) { return false; } if (field.hasMonster(fieldMonsterIndex)) { return false; } if (!(hand.get(handCardIndex) instanceof MonsterCard)) { return false; } return true; } @Override public void performAction(final Player player) { Objects.requireNonNull(player); if (!isActionAllowed(player)) { throw new PlayerActionNotAllowedException(); } Hand hand = player.getHand(); Field field = player.getField(); field.setMonster(fieldMonsterIndex, (MonsterCard)hand.play(handCardIndex)); } } We can observe the need for the following tests: Constructor test with valid input Constructor test with invalid inputs isActionAllowed test with valid input isActionAllowed test with invalid inputs performAction test with valid input performAction test with invalid inputs My idea mainly focuses on the isActionAllowed test with invalid inputs. Writing these tests is not fun, you need to ensure a number of conditions and you check whether it really returns false, this can be extended to performAction, where an exception needs to be thrown in that case. The goal of my idea is to generate those tests, by indicating (through GUI of IDE hopefully) that you want to generate tests based on a specific branch. The implementation by example User clicks on "Generate code for branch if (handCardIndex >= hand.getCapacity())". Now the tool needs to find a case where that holds. (I haven't added the relevant code as that may clutter the post ultimately) To invalidate the branch, the tool needs to find a handCardIndex and hand.getCapacity() such that the condition >= holds. It needs to construct a Player with a Hand that has a capacity of at least 1. It notices that the capacity private int of Hand needs to be at least 1. It searches for ways to set it to 1. Fortunately it finds a constructor that takes the capacity as an argument. It uses 1 for this. Some more work needs to be done to succesfully construct a Player instance, involving the creation of objects that have constraints that can be seen by inspecting the source code. It has found the hand with the least capacity possible and is able to construct it. Now to invalidate the test it will need to set handCardIndex = 1. It constructs the test and asserts it to be false (the returned value of the branch) What does the tool need to work? In order to function properly, it will need the ability to scan through all source code (including JDK code) to figure out all constraints. Optionally this could be done through the javadoc, but that is not always used to indicate all constraints. It could also do some trial and error, but it pretty much stops if you cannot attach source code to compiled classes. Then it needs some basic knowledge of what the primitive types are, including arrays. And it needs to be able to construct some form of "modification trees". The tool knows that it needs to change a certain variable to a different value in order to get the correct testcase. Hence it will need to list all possible ways to change it, without using reflection obviously. What this tool will not replace is the need to create tailored unit tests that tests all kinds of conditions when a certain method actually works. It is purely to be used to test methods when they invalidate constraints. My questions: Is creating such a tool feasible? Would it ever work, or are there some obvious problems? Would such a tool be useful? Is it even useful to automatically generate these testcases at all? Could it be extended to do even more useful things? Does, by chance, such a project already exist and would I be reinventing the wheel? If not proven useful, but still possible to make such thing, I will still consider it for fun. If it's considered useful, then I might make an open source project for it depending on the time. For people searching more background information about the used Player and Hand classes in my example, please refer to this repository. At the time of writing the PutMonsterOnFieldAction has not been uploaded to the repo yet, but this will be done once I'm done with the unit tests.

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• 'Situations gone wrong' for web apps...

  - by AvgJoe007

  Hi all I know there's some decent material floating around relating to more specific areas, but wanted to get some opinions from people who have had bad experiences in the past. I have a project where I can have a say on the design of a B2C web app, which has some external API interfaces. UX is crucial as is speed. Not sure what technology will be used at this stage. In designing this application, I want to make sure obvious features are not left out (i.e. ones that make maintenance/development easier). So can you guys tell me about 'situations gone wrong' that could have been avoided had more consideration taken place? Am looking to gather feedback in general, so don't worry if your example is industry/technology specific - so long as it pertains to web. Thanks for reading, I look forward to your responses!

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• Modules already committed, client doesn't pay, what should I do?

  - by John

  So the story is simple, early stage EU portal hired me to do some extra modules. I got all the source code for local testing, did my job, committed new code. Now I am out of this project but client still haven't paid me yet and he is not even thinking about that. It has been couple of months and no contract was signed so I can't take any legal actions. What should I do with all the source code? Sell it? Run exact copy of that portal? Make all portal publicly available?

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• SuperSocket

  - by csharp-source.net

  SuperSocket is a light weight extensible socket application framework. You can use it to build a command based server side socket application (like FTP server, SMTP/POP3/IMAP4 server, SIP server, etc) easily without thinking about how to use socket, how to maintain the socket connections and how socket works(synchronize/asynchronize). It is a pure C# project which is designed to be extended, so it is easy to be integrated to your existing system. As long as your systems (like forum/CRM/MIS/HRM/ERP) are developed in .NET language, you must be able to use SuperSocket to build your socket application as a part of your current system perfectly.

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• OpenJDK In The News: Oracle Outlines Roadmap for Java SE and JavaFX at JavaOne 2012

  - by $utils.escapeXML($entry.author)

  The OpenJDK Community continues to host the development of the reference implementation of Java SE 8. Weekly developer preview builds of JDK 8 continue to be available from jdk8.java.net.OpenJDK continues to thrive with contributions from Oracle, as well as other companies, researchers and individuals.The OpenJDK Web Site Terms of Use was recently updated to allow work on Java Specification Requests (JSRs) for Java SE to take place in the OpenJDK Community, alongside their corresponding reference implementations, so that specification leads can satisfy the new transparency requirements of the Java Community Process (JCP 2.8).“The recent decision by the Java SE 8 Expert Group to defer modularity to Java SE 9 will allow us to focus on the highly-anticipated Project Lambda, the Nashorn JavaScript engine, the new Date/Time API, and Type Annotations, along with numerous other performance, simplification, and usability enhancements,” said Georges Saab, vice president, Software Development, Java Platform Group at Oracle. “We are continuing to increase our communication and transparency by developing the reference implementation and the Oracle-led JSRs in the OpenJDK community.”Quotes taken from the 14th press release from Oracle mentioning OpenJDK, titled "Oracle Outlines Roadmap for Java SE and JavaFX at JavaOne 2012".

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• Are C or C++ The Only Viable Languages for a GC

  - by user95312

  Background I have just finished writing a compiler for a functional language compiling to the JVM as a learning project. However, since I'm just doing this to learn, I thought it might be interesting to write a native backend and a RTS for it. As I've been planning out what this new backend will look like, the one point I'm stumbling on is the garbage collector. I've implemented the compiler in Haskell. But I have no desire to write the GC in Haskell since, while it may be possible, it'd suck. Question I've looked at several FOSS garbage collectors prior to posting and most of them were implemented in good old ANSI C. Is this still the most accepted choice for writing a GC nowadays? I've seen that this site tends to frown upon questions with multiple answers so I hope this will make it more specific: If some startup was writing a professional grade gc today, are the only viable choice for them C or C++? It's my first question here so please comment and let me know if this question is ill-suited for for programmers.

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• How to set up a WACOM Cintiq 24 HD in Ubuntu 11.10/12.04?

  - by isphording90

  I'm new to Ubuntu and the Linux world (switched from mac to linux) and i have a problem: I'm studyin industrial-design and a lot of my work depends on my wacom cintiq 24 HD. My problem is that ubuntu doesn't find my cintiq. I googled for wacom drivers and found the linux wacom project. The problem for me is that i hardly understand anything of what i have to do... Is there anyone who can tell me how i can set up my 24HD or is there an easy way for people who are new to linux like me. I really really like linux and want to stay with it but that isn't possible for me without my cintiq. I would be very greatefull for any help!

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• 2D XNA Game Engine with a Good Wiki [closed]

  - by gcx

  I'm a newbie game developer. I'm planning to develop a XBOX (with a Kinect to double the fun) game. I've researched some 2D game engines that i can use in my project. After some research I've found IceCream engine and it looks delicious with its Milkshake editor. But I can't seem to find "working" game source examples for that engine and its own website's tutorial is not very sufficent. (If you are familiar with this engine) do you know any community that has helpful resources for this particular engine? If not, which engines do you recommend (that has a great wiki) for a XNA based XBOX - Kinect game?

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• Terra lang and Lua

  - by msalese

  I was reading on terralang site about terra language as "a new low-level system programming language that is designed to interoperate seamlessly with the Lua programming language..." Zach DeVito (the main author) write about the use of terra : A scripting-language with high-performance extensions..... An embedded JIT-compiler for building languages..... A stand-alone low-level language.... But (may be my fault) I don't understand if terra is: a luaJit competitor a better system to interface with c library something better than luaJit using llvm Can someone help me to better understand what is going on terralang project ? Thanks

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• BDD in a .NET environment

  - by Nick

  I've seen BDD in action (in this case using SpecFlow and Selenium in a .NET environment) for a small test project. I was very impressed - mainly due to the fact that the language used to specify the acceptance tests meant they engaged with the product owner much more easily. I'm now keen to bring this into my current organisation. However I'm asked 'who else uses this?' and 'show me some case-studies'. Unfortunately I cannot find any 'big names' (or even 'small names' for that matter!) of companies who are actively using BDD. I have two questions really: Is BDD adopted by companies out there? Who are they? How can BDD be implemented in an agile .NET environment and are there any significant drawbacks to doing it?

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• Clean SOAP Calls from iOS - SudzC

  - by Richard Jones

  This is worth another mention. If you need to call SOAP web-services from iOS or Javascript, and lets face who doesn't. http://SudzC.com really delivers. You give it the URL to you're WSDL file (or upload a file) and it just spits out a ready to go Xcode project. I would point out that to get it to work 100% I changed line 204, in Soap.m (commented out line is old version, mine is below) //if([child respondsToSelector:@selector(name)] && [[child name] isEqual: name]) { if([child respondsToSelector:@selector(name)] && [[child name] hasSuffix: name]) { I consumed a Microsoft Dynamics NAV set of web-service pages no problem (and they tend to be fairly complex WSDL definitions).

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