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  • Are there any resources on how to identify problems that could best be solved with templates?

    - by sap
    I decided to improve my knowledge in template meta-programming. I know the syntax and rules and been playing with counteless examples from online resources. I understand how powerful templates can be and how much compile time optimization they can provide but I still cant "think in templates", I can't seem to know by myself if a certain problem could be best solved with templates and if it can, how to adapt that problem to templates. Is there some kind of online resource or book that teaches how to identify problems that could best be solved with templates and how to adapt that problem?

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  • How to deal with cargo-cult programming attitude?

    - by Aivar
    I have some students (in introductory programming course) who see programming language as a set of magic spells, which must be cast in order to achieve some effect (instead of seeing it as a flexible medium for expressing his idea of solution). They tend to copy-paste code from previous similarly sounding assignments without considering the essence of the problem. Can anyone recommend some exercises or analogies to make those students more confident that they can and should understand the structure and meaning of each piece of code they write?

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  • Problem with ebay AddItem API call [migrated]

    - by user1323572
    I am totally new to any sort of API application. Right now I am creating a listing application to list items on E-bay India site. API version being used is 767, sandbox url is https://api.sandbox.ebay.com/wsapi. I have sandbox account for ebay(buyer/seller) and developer account. I am getting error saying: 1) Sales Tax / VAT was dropped from the listing as per new sales tax / VAT policy. The items will be listed successfully, you may revise the listing to specify all inclusive price. 2) You have either not registered or are having problem with your payment method registration. ItemType type = new ItemType(); type.PaymentMethods = new BuyerPaymentMethodCodeTypeCollection(); type.PaymentMethods.Add(BuyerPaymentMethodCodeType.PaisaPayAccepted); Also do I have to specify taxation for each state? For VAT and shipping details here's my snippet: private ShippingDetailsType getShippingDetails() { // Shipping details. ShippingDetailsType sd = new ShippingDetailsType(); SalesTaxType salesTax = new SalesTaxType(); ReadSettings rs = new ReadSettings(); rs.GetSettings(); salesTax.SalesTaxPercent = 12f; salesTax.SalesTaxState = "MH"; SalesTaxType s = new SalesTaxType(); salesTax.ShippingIncludedInTax = true; salesTax.ShippingIncludedInTaxSpecified = true; sd.ApplyShippingDiscount = true; AmountType at = new AmountType(); at.Value = 2.8; at.currencyID = CurrencyCodeType.INR; sd.InsuranceFee = at; sd.InsuranceOption = InsuranceOptionCodeType.NotOffered; sd.PaymentInstructions = "These are my instructions."; VATDetailsType vd = new VATDetailsType(); vd.BusinessSeller = false; vd.BusinessSellerSpecified = false; vd.RestrictedToBusiness = false; vd.RestrictedToBusinessSpecified = false; vd.VATID = "VATSNO1234567890"; vd.VATPercent = 12f; vd.VATPercentSpecified = true; vd.VATSite = "None"; sd.ShippingType = ShippingTypeCodeType.Flat; // ShippingServiceOptionsType st1 = new ShippingServiceOptionsType(); sd.SalesTax = salesTax; st1.ShippingService = ShippingServiceCodeType.IN_Express.ToString(); at = new AmountType(); at.Value = 50; at.currencyID = CurrencyCodeType.INR; st1.ShippingServiceAdditionalCost = at; at = new AmountType(); at.Value = 50; at.currencyID = CurrencyCodeType.INR; st1.ShippingServiceCost = at; st1.ShippingServicePriority = 1; at = new AmountType(); at.Value = 1.0; at.currencyID = CurrencyCodeType.INR; st1.ShippingInsuranceCost = at; sd.ShippingServiceOptions = new ShippingServiceOptionsTypeCollection(new ShippingServiceOptionsType[] { st1 }); return sd; } Thank you for you efforts.

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  • Communication between state machines with hidden transitions

    - by slartibartfast
    The question emerged for me in embedded programming but I think it can be applied to quite a number of general networking situations e.g. when a communication partner fails. Assume we have an application logic (a program) running on a computer and a gadget connected to that computer via e.g. a serial interface like RS232. The gadget has a red/green/blue LED and a button which disables the LED. The LEDs color can be driven by software commands over the serial interface and the state (red/green/blue/off) is read back and causes a reaction in the application logic. Asynchronous behaviour of the application logic with regard to the LED color down to a certain delay (depending on the execution cycle of the application) is tolerated. What we essentially have is a resource (the LED) which can not be reserved and handled atomically by software because the (organic) user can at any time press the button to interfere/break the software attempt to switch the LED color. Stripping this example from its physical outfit I dare to say that we have two communicating state machines A (application logic) and G (gadget) where G executes state changes unbeknownst to A (and also the other way round, but this is not significant in our example) and only A can be modified at a reasonable price. A needs to see the reaction and state of G in one piece of information which may be (slightly) outdated but not inconsistent with respect to the short time window when this information was generated on the side of G. What I am looking for is a concise method to handle such a situation in embedded software (i.e. no layer/framework like CORBA etc. available). A programming technique which is able to map the complete behaviour of both participants on classical interfaces of a classical programming language (C in this case). To complicate matters (or rather, to generalize), a simple high frequency communication cycle of A to G and back (IOW: A is rapidly polling G) is out of focus because of technical restrictions (delay of serial com, A not always active, etc.). What I currently see as a general solution is: the application logic A as one thread of execution an adapter object (proxy) PG (presenting G inside the computer), together with the serial driver as another thread a communication object between the two (A and PG) which is transactionally safe to exchange The two execution contexts (threads) on the computer may be multi-core or just interrupt driven or tasks in an RTOS. The com object contains the following data: suspected state (written by A): effectively a member of the power set of states in G (in our case: red, green, blue, off, red_or_green, red_or_blue, red_or_off...etc.) command data (written by A): test_if_off, switch_to_red, switch_to_green, switch_to_blue operation status (written by PG): operation_pending, success, wrong_state, link_broken new state (written by PG): red, green, blue, off The idea of the com object is that A writes whichever (set of) state it thinks G is in, together with a command. (Example: suspected state="red_or_green", command: "switch_to_blue") Notice that the commands issued by A will not work if the user has switched off the LED and A needs to know this. PG will pick up such a com object and try to send the command to G, receive its answer (or a timeout) and set the operation status and new state accordingly. A will take back the oject once it is no longer at operation_pending and can react to the outcome. The com object could be separated of course (into two objects, one for each direction) but I think it is convenient in nearly all instances to have the command close to the result. I would like to have major flaws pointed out or hear an entirely different view on such a situation.

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  • PHP: A config file in .ini or .php format?

    - by Tim Visee
    I'm working on a huge CMS system, and I asked myself what configuration format I should use. There are two common formats for configuration files. The first one is an INI file, containg all the configuration properties. Then you can simply parse this INI file using build in PHP functions. A second option is to use a PHP file containing a regular PHP array with these configuration properties. Now, it's easier to edit an INI file, but a PHP file give's you more options, for example it allows you to add a function which retrieves one of the configuration options while reading the configuration file. Note: The PHP configuration file would only contain an array of configuration, no initialization functions or anything. (This is possible of course, but it's not implemented by default) Now, what is recommend for me to use as configuration file? What is the most common format for a configuration file? Should I go for simplicity with the INI files, or with a more dynamic one using PHP. One thing to note, this is not for personal usage. I'm planning to release the CMS system soon, and a lot of websites are scheduled already to change to my CMS system.

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  • How can I best manage making open source code releases from my company's confidential research code?

    - by DeveloperDon
    My company (let's call them Acme Technology) has a library of approximately one thousand source files that originally came from its Acme Labs research group, incubated in a development group for a couple years, and has more recently been provided to a handful of customers under non-disclosure. Acme is getting ready to release perhaps 75% of the code to the open source community. The other 25% would be released later, but for now, is either not ready for customer use or contains code related to future innovations they need to keep out of the hands of competitors. The code is presently formatted with #ifdefs that permit the same code base to work with the pre-production platforms that will be available to university researchers and a much wider range of commercial customers once it goes to open source, while at the same time being available for experimentation and prototyping and forward compatibility testing with the future platform. Keeping a single code base is considered essential for the economics (and sanity) of my group who would have a tough time maintaining two copies in parallel. Files in our current base look something like this: > // Copyright 2012 (C) Acme Technology, All Rights Reserved. > // Very large, often varied and restrictive copyright license in English and French, > // sometimes also embedded in make files and shell scripts with varied > // comment styles. > > > ... Usual header stuff... > > void initTechnologyLibrary() { > nuiInterface(on); > #ifdef UNDER_RESEARCH > holographicVisualization(on); > #endif > } And we would like to convert them to something like: > // GPL Copyright (C) Acme Technology Labs 2012, Some rights reserved. > // Acme appreciates your interest in its technology, please contact [email protected] > // for technical support, and www.acme.com/emergingTech for updates and RSS feed. > > ... Usual header stuff... > > void initTechnologyLibrary() { > nuiInterface(on); > } Is there a tool, parse library, or popular script that can replace the copyright and strip out not just #ifdefs, but variations like #if defined(UNDER_RESEARCH), etc.? The code is presently in Git and would likely be hosted somewhere that uses Git. Would there be a way to safely link repositories together so we can efficiently reintegrate our improvements with the open source versions? Advice about other pitfalls is welcome.

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  • How to better integrate a unix development environment into Windows

    - by SKenz
    I'm mostly a Windows user but I do most of my development (essentially web development) using unix tools and software. I've been going back and forth between using a dedicated lubuntu virtual machine on Virtualbox and using some tools directly in windows (msgit, python, django), but none of these approaches is entirely satisfactory. I'd like to hear of ways other devs use to better integrate a unix workflow into windows. For instance tighter integration between a linux and vm and windows. The vagrant demo showed how a VM could work off of a windows project folder and I found that nice. I'd like to hear of other tools and tips that would help mimic the workflow one can find on OS X (of course I understand that it cannot be as tightly integrated on Windows as it doesn't have the same unix underpinnings). PS: I have tried cygwin as well EDIT for clarifications about What I find lacking (thanks to axblount for pointing that out) : unix tools like msys et al do not work as well as their native unic counterparts. Many scripts, installers require further configuration or do not work at all. For instance getting virtualenvwrapper to work is not very straightforward. virtualbox: ideally I would like to use windows software (photoshop, sublime text 2) seamlessly with linux. I mostly use a FTP client atm to move over files edited on the windows side which is a tedious process.

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  • Should I use title case in URLs?

    - by Amadiere
    We are currently deciding on a consistent naming convention across a site with multiple web applications. Historically, I've been an advocate of the 'lowercase all the letters!' when creating URLs: http://example.com/mysystem/account/view/1551 However, within the last year or two, specifically since I began using ASP.NET MVC & had more dealings with REST based URLs, I've become a fan of capitalizing the first letter of each section/word within the URL as it makes it easier to read (imho). http://example.com/MySystem/Account/View/1551 We're not in a situation where people need to read or be able to understand the URLs, so that's not a driver per se. The main thing we are after is a consistent approach that is rational and makes sense. Are there any standards that declare it good to do one way or another, or issues that we may run into on (at least realistically modern) setups that would choose a preference over another? What is the general consensus for this debate currently?

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  • Assembly Language being used in Aircraft System

    - by caramel23
    Today my lecturer mentioned the reason why the aircraft system is programmed in assembly language is due to the program being written have less error . Is this statement true ? Because when he asked about our opinion I said assembly can create faster program thus it is a good language for real-time oriented aircraft system program . I search around google but can't seem to find an article clarifying my lecturer's statement .

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  • What is constructor injection?

    - by TheSilverBullet
    I have been looking at the terms constructor injection and dependency injection while going through articles on (Service locator) design patterns. When I googled about constructor injection, I got unclear results, which prompted me to check in here. What is constructor injection? Is this a specific type of dependency injection? A canonical example would be a great help! Edit Revisiting this questions after a gap of a week, I can see how lost I was... Just in case anyone else pops in here, I will update the question body with a little learning of mine. Please do feel free to comment/correct. Constructor injection and property injection are two types of Dependency Injection.

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  • Restful Java based web services in json + html5 and javascript no templates (jsp/jsf/freemarker) aka fat/thick client

    - by Ismail Marmoush
    I have this idea of building a website which service JSON data through restful services framework. And will not use any template engines like jsp/jsf/freemarker. Just pure html5 and Javascript libs. What do you think of the pros and cons of such design ? Just for elaboration and brain storming a friend of mine argued with the following concerns: sounds like gwt this way you won't have any control over you service api for example say you wanna charge the user per request how will you handle it? how will you control your design and themes? what about the 1st request the browser make? not easy with this all of the user's requests will come with "Accept" header "application/json" how will you separate browser from abuser? this way all of your public apis will be used by third party apps abusively and you won't be able to lock it since you won't be able to block the normal user browser We won't use compiled html anyway but may be something like freemarker and in that case you won't expose any of your json resources to the unauthorized user but you will expose all the html since any browser can access them all the well known 1st class services do this can you send me links to what you've read? keep in mind the DOM based XSS it will be a nightmare ofc, if what you say is applicable.

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  • How to keep AST for feature access?

    - by greenoldman
    Consider such code (let's say it is C++) Foo::Bar.get().X How one should keep the AST for this -- as "tree" with root at left Foo(Bar(get(X)), or with root at right (((Foo)Bar)get)X? Or maybe as a flat structure (list)? The first one seems more convenient when resolving names, the second when working with it as expression. I set tag parsing but I am asking from semantic analysis POV really (there is no such tag).

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  • how to troubleshoot sql server issues

    - by joe
    i have an ASP .net application with sql server database, and i am wondering if you can give your ideas on how to troubleshoot the following issue: i can insert / update / delete from any table, but i have one page that uses transactions to insert into different tables. the c# code is correct and very simple, but it fails. i used the sql profiler to see how my app interacts with the DB, especially that the app is using stored procedures, i can catch the exec procedure statement and run it manually from SSMS and it works fine, but the same stored procedure fails from the application!!! which lead me to think that issue is coming from the user account and settings, i am no expert in sql server and wondering if anyone can explain how to verify the required settings for user account. thanks EDIT: in web.config here is how i reference my connection <connectionStrings> <add name="Conn" connectionString="Data Source=localhost;Initial Catalog=myDB;Persist Security Info=True;User ID=DbUser;Password=password1254_3" providerName="System.Data.SqlClient"> </connectionstring> EDIT: i will try to describe the process here: 1- i begin a transaction 2- i call a stored proc to insert (which succeeds) and return the scope identity ( that will be used in the next step) 3- i call another stored procedure to insert some more info + scope identity from step 2, which is a foreign key here 4- i get error, foreign key violation 5- transaction rolled back, now tables empty again... thanks

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  • Why doesn't libxml2 support XPath 2.0?

    - by Peter Krauss
    Libxml2 is the faster, stable and most popular "open DOM engine"... And the "XML C parser and toolkit of Gnome". The initial release of Libxml2 was September 1999, 13 years ago. XPath v1.0 was also released at 1999. XPath v2.0 became a recommendation on January 2007, 6 years ago. We can suppose that the Libxml2 community have time and people to develop a XPath2... So, what is the problem? Why doesn't libxml2 (or a "libxml2 fork" or an "experimental lib"!) support XPath 2.0? Some raised hypotheses to discussion at answers, Because Libxml2 community (and Gnome community) dislikes and have no motivation to develop something to XPath2 or xQuery. 1.1. XPath2 needs (by mathematical proof) a very heavy parser, much slower, etc. that is not suitable to real-world Libxml2 applications. 1.2. Other "ideologic" dislikes/motivations. Because it is written with C, and for XPath2 is better to develop with C++. Because the above hypothesis of "Libxml2 community have time and people" is false. Because XPath2 became stable in 2010 with its "Second Edition" release, and ~2.5 years is not (?) enough time.

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  • How do I learn Python from zero to web development? [closed]

    - by Terence Ponce
    I am looking into learning Python for web development. Assuming I already have some basic web development experience with Java (JSP/Servlets), I'm already familiar with web design (HTML, CSS, JS), basic programming concepts and that I am completely new to Python, how do I go about learning Python in a structured manner that will eventually lead me to web development with Python and Django? I'm not in a hurry to make web applications in Python so I really want to learn it thoroughly so as not to leave any gaps in my knowledge of the technologies involving web development in Python. Are there any books, resource or techniques to help me in my endeavor? In what order should I do/read them? UPDATE: When I say learning in a structured manner, I mean starting out from the basics then learning the advanced stuff without leaving some of the important details/features that Python has to offer. I want to know how to apply the things that I already know in programming to Python.

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  • What is the most performant CSS property for transitioning an element?

    - by Ian Kuca
    I'm wondering whether there is a performance difference between using different CSS properties to translate an element. Some properties fit different situations differently. You can translate an element with following properties: transform, top/left/right/bottom and margin-top/left/right/bottom In the case where you do not utilize the transition CSS property for the translation but use some form of a timer (setTimeout, requestAnimationFrame or setImmediate) or raw events, which is the most performant–which is going to make for higher FPS rates?

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  • What's special about currying or partial application?

    - by Vigneshwaran
    I've been reading articles on Functional programming everyday and been trying to apply some practices as much as possible. But I don't understand what is unique in currying or partial application. Take this Groovy code as an example: def mul = { a, b -> a * b } def tripler1 = mul.curry(3) def tripler2 = { mul(3, it) } I do not understand what is the difference between tripler1 and tripler2. Aren't they both the same? The 'currying' is supported in pure or partial functional languages like Groovy, Scala, Haskell etc. But I can do the same thing (left-curry, right-curry, n-curry or partial application) by simply creating another named or anonymous function or closure that will forward the parameters to the original function (like tripler2) in most languages (even C.) Am I missing something here? There are places where I can use currying and partial application in my Grails application but I am hesitating to do so because I'm asking myself "How's that different?" Please enlighten me.

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  • Is it useful to unit test methods where the only logic is guards?

    - by Vaccano
    Say I have a method like this: public void OrderNewWidget(Widget widget) { if ((widget.PartNumber > 0) && (widget.PartAvailable)) { WigdetOrderingService.OrderNewWidgetAsync(widget.PartNumber); } } I have several such methods in my code (the front half to an async Web Service call). I am debating if it is useful to get them covered with unit tests. Yes there is logic here, but it is only guard logic. (Meaning I make sure I have the stuff I need before I allow the web service call to happen.) Part of me says "sure you can unit test them, but it is not worth the time" (I am on a project that is already behind schedule). But the other side of me says, if you don't unit test them, and someone changes the Guards, then there could be problems. But the first part of me says back, if someone changes the guards, then you are just making more work for them (because now they have to change the guards and the unit tests for the guards). For example, if my service assumes responsibility to check for Widget availability then I may not want that guard any more. If it is under unit test, I have to change two places now. I see pros and cons in both ways. So I thought I would ask what others have done.

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  • Strategy for clients to retrieve real-time log from HTTP server

    - by Jerry Dodge
    I have an HTTP Server Service application which has its own logging mechanism. It's written in Delphi. I would like to provide a way for multiple clients to connect to this service and get a real-time update of the log. The log in the service moves rather fast, there's a lot of things to log. There may be up to 50 messages within 1 second at times. The existing log which is already implemented is not saved, it's only kept in the memory of the server service - where I will need to distribute it to any client which needs it. Once all clients have a log message, it should be deleted. I intend to use HTTP to "ask" the server for the log, and respond with an XML packet. The connections are not keep-alive. The only problem is, the server should only send the client those log records which it needs, not everything. I have no way of the server pushing the log to the clients in real-time, so each client needs to repeatedly ask the server for the latest log records. This HTTP Server is very lightweight, and there is no session management. There isn't even any type of authentication. The only way I see is for a client to register its self on the server, and whenever a log is issued on the server, it creates a copy of the log for each client, where each client has a log queue (string list). However, suppose there are 100 clients connected and expecting to receive this log. That means the server must create 100 copies of each log, add this log to the end of each client log queue, and wait for the client to request it. At that point, when the server replies with the XML log, it should flush (delete) whatever's in the queue. I'm worried however that this could cause memory issues. Each client log queue might get 100 log messages before the client requests the latest logs. How should I go about doing this in the fastest way possible without hindering the performance of the server? I'm trying to avoid having to create a copy of each log for each client.

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  • Storing Attendance Data in database

    - by Ali Abbas
    So i have to store daily attendance of employees of my organisation from my application . The part where I need some help is, the efficient way to store attendance data. After some research and brain storming I came up with some approaches . Could you point me out which one is the best and any unobvious ill effects of the mentioned approaches. The approaches are as follows Create a single table for whole organisation and store empid,date,presentstatus as a row for every employee everyday. Create a single table for whole organisation and store a single row for each day with a comma delimited string of empids which are absent. I will generate the string on my application. Create different tables for each department and follow the 1 method. Please share your views and do mention any other good methods

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  • Why does XCode convert PNGs to CgBI format?

    - by Gdeglin
    According to the research done here http://imageoptim.com/tweetbot.html, Xcode's conversion of PNGs to the proprietary Apple CgBI format does not create a noticeable performance improvement. Their claim is that the conversion only reduces PNG loading speed by 1 nanosecond. If this is true, why does apple bother with the CgBI format at all? Has anyone else benchmarked loading CgBI images vs regular PNG images on iOS devices to see if they perform differently?

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  • Fundamental programming book [closed]

    - by Luke Annison
    I'm a fairly new programmer and currently learning ruby on rails with the intention of developing a web application. I am currently going reading Agile Web Development with Rails 4th Edition and its working well for me, however I'm wondering if somebody can recommend a more general, almost classic book to read casually alongside to help cement the fundamentals in place. As I said, I'm for the most part a beginner and the only education I've had is this and briefly one other technical book, so I'm sure there must be some "must reads" out there that give me a more substantial context for the basics of either Ruby on Rails, Ruby, objective oriented programming, or programming in general. What books helped you grasp a deeper and more rounded understanding of your skills as a programmer? All suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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  • What is the need for 'discoverability' in a REST API when the clients are not advanced enough to make use of it anyway?

    - by aditya menon
    The various talks I have watched and tutorials I scanned on REST seem to stress something called 'discoverability'. To my limited understanding, the term seems to mean that a client should be able to go to http://URL - and automatically get a list of things it can do. What I am having trouble understanding - is that 'software clients' are not human beings. They are just programs that do not have the intuitive knowledge to understand what exactly to do with the links provided. Only people can go to a website and make sense of the text and links presented and act on it. So what is the point of discoverability, when the client code that accesses such discoverable URLs cannot actually do anything with it, unless the human developer of the client actually experiments with the resources presented? This looks like the exact same thing as defining the set of available functions in a Documentation manual, just from a different direction and actually involving more work for the developer. Why is this second approach of pre-defining what can be done in a document external to the actual REST resources, considered inferior?

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  • Explanation on how "Tell, Don't Ask" is considered good OO

    - by Pubby
    This blogpost was posted on Hacker News with several upvotes. Coming from C++, most of these examples seem to go against what I've been taught. Such as example #2: Bad: def check_for_overheating(system_monitor) if system_monitor.temperature > 100 system_monitor.sound_alarms end end versus good: system_monitor.check_for_overheating class SystemMonitor def check_for_overheating if temperature > 100 sound_alarms end end end The advice in C++ is that you should prefer free functions instead of member functions as they increase encapsulation. Both of these are identical semantically, so why prefer the choice that has access to more state? Example 4: Bad: def street_name(user) if user.address user.address.street_name else 'No street name on file' end end versus good: def street_name(user) user.address.street_name end class User def address @address || NullAddress.new end end class NullAddress def street_name 'No street name on file' end end Why is it the responsibility of User to format an unrelated error string? What if I want to do something besides print 'No street name on file' if it has no street? What if the street is named the same thing? Could someone enlighten me on the "Tell, Don't Ask" advantages and rationale? I am not looking for which is better, but instead trying to understand the author's viewpoint.

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  • Switch vs Polymorphism when dealing with model and view

    - by Raphael Oliveira
    I can't figure out a better solution to my problem. I have a view controller that presents a list of elements. Those elements are models that can be an instance of B, C, D, etc and inherit from A. So in that view controller, each item should go to a different screen of the application and pass some data when the user select one of them. The two alternatives that comes to my mind are (please ignore the syntax, it is not a specific language) 1) switch (I know that sucks) //inside the view controller void onClickItem(int index) { A a = items.get(index); switch(a.type) { case b: B b = (B)a; go to screen X; x.v1 = b.v1; // fill X with b data x.v2 = b.v2; case c: go to screen Y; etc... } } 2) polymorphism //inside the view controller void onClickItem(int index) { A a = items.get(index); Screen s = new (a.getDestinationScreen()); //ignore the syntax s.v1 = a.v1; // fill s with information about A s.v2 = a.v2; show(s); } //inside B Class getDestinationScreen(void) { return Class(X); } //inside C Class getDestinationScreen(void) { return Class(Y); } My problem with solution 2 is that since B, C, D, etc are models, they shouldn't know about view related stuff. Or should they in that case?

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